Libera's Income

[Yorkie]

I don't get it. Really, I'm at a loss.

I've just been clearing my inbox of emails (haven't logged in for a week or two) and I picked up the stuff from the AngelVoices Yahoo Group. They were discussing Libera's request for donations to fund the USA trip and the fact that for the year ending 31/12/09 (or 12/31/09 for you Yanks) they had a declared income of £12,544.

How can it be that low?

Last year they performed in Arundel, Belfast,Dublin, Edinburgh, The 'Pines, Japan and USA.

I was at Edinburgh and I'm fairly confident there were more than 250 people but lets assume that at Arundel, Belfast & Edinburgh they performed to an average of 250 people at each with an average ticket price of £12.50 (full price £15, concessions £10) - that would be a conservative £9,375.

So from Dublin, California, Japan & the Philippines they only made £3,000? I know the Philippine gigs were for charity so exclude them, and in California they relied on collections but £3k? That seems light.

What about record sales? I bought every one of my Libera CD's in that year. No royalties at all? Do they receive a fee for appearing on Songs of Praise? Where the heck is the money going or is it a sad fact that a world class musical act is basically surviving in poverty?

Hell, I'm thinking of setting up a small monthly donation myself because that level of return for the boys efforts is embarrassing quite frankly.

[Murkskis]

I don't get it. Really, I'm at a loss.

I've just being clearing my inbox of emails (haven't logged in for a week or two) and I picked up the stuff from the AngelVoices Yahoo Group. They were discussing Libera's request for donations to fund the USA trip and the fact that for the year ending 31/12/09 (or 12/31/09 for you Yanks) they had a declared income of £12,544.

How can it be that low?

Last year they performed in Arundel, Belfast,Dublin, Edinburgh, The 'Pines, Japan and USA.

I was at Edinburgh and I'm fairly confident there were more than 250 people but lets assume that at Arundel, Belfast & Edinburgh they performed to an average of 250 people at each with an average ticket price of £12.50 (full price £15, concessions £10) - that would be a conservative £9,375.

So from Dublin, California, Japan & the Philippines they only made £3,000? I know the Philippine gigs were for charity so exclude them, and in California they relied on collections but £3k? That seems light.

What about record sales? I bought every one of my Libera CD's in that year. No royalties at all? Do they receive a fee for appearing on Songs of Praise? Where the heck is the money going or is it a sad fact that a world class musical act is basically surviving in poverty?

Hell, I'm thinking of setting up a small monthly donation myself because that level of return for the boys efforts is embarrassing quite frankly.

Yeah, this is not much at all. I hope I'm wrong somehow (maybe there is a special accounting methodology for nonprofit organizations), but it looks like they don't get much from EMI
No offense, but there are thousands of sold CDs ...

I'm very careful on conclusions though.
Still you can analyze the other part a bit- expenses. (they should match the incomes in long term)
For example, I think about their trips to Japan and USA - they probably reached at least 2000£ for a person - it's very modest calculation- plane tickets, hotels, food, their special VISAS (!), etc.
So, I have no idea how much is this together, but definitely above 12k for that trip alone. So I dare to say - some sponsorship outside the balance sheets? They say not to have big ones.
EMI could be paying their bills partly on the basis of special agreement?
I'm becoming speculative with such assumptions.

So finally you can't get the whole picture of this 12k number at all.

About the donations, I like your idea.
I'm planning to make some more, too!

[Yorkie]

Hi Didzis, hope you are well.

Yes, it is very easy to jump to conclusions and misinterpret things but it does seem a little odd. With that level of income the trips to Japan, Philippines and California must have been paid for almost entirely by an outside organisation - £12,500 doesn't get flights, visas, hotel and food for 30+ people. Unless they have a really great travel agent in which case I want the name and phone number!

[Murkskis]

Hi Didzis, hope you are well.

Yes, it is very easy to jump to conclusions and misinterpret things but it does seem a little odd. With that level of income the trips to Japan, Philippines and California must have been paid for almost entirely by an outside organisation - £12,500 doesn't get flights, visas, hotel and food for 30+ people. Unless they have a really great travel agent in which case I want the name and phone number!

I'm fine Andy, nice to see you here again.
Otherwise, I thought you might have boarded some ship to USA for some reasons or smth

[fan_de_LoK]

For the amount of the concerts incomes, I think those incomes are not managed directly by Libera and it can't be expected that it goes at 100% to Libera.

What I mean (with my bad english... ) is that on every "church concert" where I went, the people that were selling tickets at the entrance and took the money were always differents. These people are not libera people but church people.

If 400 persons come to the concert and everyone pay £10, you can't expect that the full £4000 goes to Libera. There are plenty things to pay for the concert, and money to let at the church.
So I'm quite sure that when a concert took place in a church, there is an agreement between Libera and the church, per example something defining a respective % repartition for every part.


Regarding EMI, I think Murkskis can be right : as a charity organisation, Libera may have a special agreement with Emi. No money given but in return 100% support for all spends for the Asians tour. The planes, hotels, bus, food, surely are widely expensive, so we can imagine this is covered by the CD sales

[JimmyRiddle]

There's always been endless speculation with what the financial arrangement is between Libera and their record company. Who get's what, what share etc... etc... EMI itself is not in sitting comfortably financially at the moment either. They made a loss of £1.8bn last year alone. To be honest I don't think 'libera' as a whole see a smidgeon of a percentage from their record sales. However there is an agreement with the EMI Japan franchise that they sponsor Libera when they tour to Japan. They also found sponsors and charitable donours for their tour to the Phillipines. I don't think they are getting much apart from our own personal donations to support their US tour.

[TEB]

Most "not for profit" groups are always hurting a little for money. I belong to one. My Civil War re-enactment unit. Any money we get paid at an event must remain within the group to be used for the expenses of the group. We must maintain several different kinds of insurance because of the 2 cannons we own and for liability as well. Plus we use black powder which is costly. When we do a backround check on a prospective member, it comes out of the general fund. Plus repairs to our flags, gas money for the people who tow the guns and so on. It disappears fast.

Let's think of a few costs for Libera. The upkeep of the robes is one. Supplying the boys with the different uniforms then wear when touring. The lighting effects system, the concert sound system. Keyboards and other instruments. Travel insurance, liability as well. Travel costs. Food while on tour. Hotel rooms and so on.
Since they are a not for profit group, I am not sure how they handle income from EMI for cd sales.
Donations help and it is also a way to help the average fan feel more apart of the overall image of Libera. I have a friend who helped buy their newest keyboard and he says he feels he is sort of part of the group because of that.

One of these days, I will actually be ahead enough on bills to send them a donation myself.

[Yorkie]

I hear you all but I have some problems still.......

Re holding concerts in churches - I could see it going one of two ways; Libera agree to take a % of the revenue back, the remainder stays with the home church as a sort of fund raising gift (almost a charity concert by Libera to raise funds). But why would you do that if you were so short of money?

The other way would be to rent the church for a set amount. Libera receives all the gross proceeds from ticket sales but then has to pay the expenses from that (cost of church, cost of staff selling tickets, etc). Now the second way strikes me as the obvious way of working but that is not how Libera are doing it because the ticket sales are not reflected in their income. I find that odd for a group so short of cash.

Royalties from record sales is a bit out of my league. I know that artists generally get much less than people suppose and in this case it is more of a three way split anyway (music/lyrics/artist) - but no royalties at all? Even if EMI in Japan pays for the trips over there (and somebody must be doing it because Libera can't afford to) it doesn't explain where record sales from Europe, America and the rest of the world ends up.

Tom, I hear you about expenses but that is my point to a degree; the £12,500 is gross income before any of the costs you mention are offset (at least as I understand it but I could be wrong. What am I saying, you all know I'm never wrong ).

I'm a glass half empty person by nature but something is nagging me about this.

[phlibera]

Concerts by local artists charged more for tickets than Libera did in the Cebu concert last year. And they're for charity, as said by Yorkie and my ticket, which I kept. So they probably don't earn much or at all from the concert tickets here in the Philippines. They probably just earn (indirectly) from CD/DVD sales during the autograph signing events.

Question is, is that figure net income or gross income? It would make all the difference.

[Yorkie]

Concerts by local artists charged more for tickets than Libera did in the Cebu concert last year. And they're for charity, as said by Yorkie and my ticket, which I kept. So they probably don't earn much or at all from the concert tickets here in the Philippines. They probably just earn (indirectly) from CD/DVD sales during the autograph signing events.

Question is, is that figure net income or gross income? It would make all the difference.

It is for 100% certain Libera's gross income for the trading year ended 31st December 2009.

[TullyBascombe]

I'm not sure what a "declared" income is. What we really need to know is what their net income is/ was.

[Yorkie]

I'm not sure what a "declared" income is. What we really need to know is what their net income is/ was.

Their net income was a slight loss Tully.

[TullyBascombe]

I'm not sure what a "declared" income is. What we really need to know is what their net income is/ was.

Their net income was a slight loss Tully.

Well that is a shame. Still it would seem unlikely that, taking into consideration their tours, that their operating expenses would have only been around $18,000 in 2009.

[john45]

The figure quoted by the Charity Commission probably only represents income from charitable donations and does not include revenue from concerts, Amazon, CD sales etc

[Yorkie]

The figure quoted by the Charity Commission probably only represents income from charitable donations and does not include revenue from concerts, Amazon, CD sales etc

Sorry John but that is not correct. The amount stated on the Charity Commission website is the companies (Libera's) total gross income for the trading year. It doesn't include income from Amazon or CD sales not because only charitable income is included but apparently the company called Libera did not receive any of those income streams during the trading year. Concerts incomes are included. The bulk of the £12,500 income is from charitable donations.