Libera Dreams

Hello friends.
Terrible thing happening right now in Paris. Notre Dame is burning. Appears that all the roofs and stained glass are already lost. Firemen cannot stop the fire to burn it's been more than 2 hours.
They say the firemen saved most of the art inside the building, although no one knows anything about the treasure.

https://www.letelegramme.fr/images/2019 ... 0p.jpg?v=1

It really hurts me just to see the pictures. It thought you guys could understand how sad this is.
I have always hoped Libera would sing here one day. Well, now I mainly hope they will be able to restore it somehow.

A sad day today.

The treasure is safe.
But they still are unsure they will save the walls. One of the two towers is burning and might fall. From then, all could fall in turn.
Time has stopped I'm unable to do anything.

Hang in there Padmachou. The world is watching.
I am grateful to have celebrated Mass in Notre Dame in the Easter season of 2013.
Now, the heart of Our Lady is burning, like the images of Mary's Immaculate Heart, right in Holy Week.
Remember: Lent starts with ashes, but will lead to new life.

Chef fireman just said the towers are safe ! Well, not untouched, but they will stand ! The face of Notre Dame holds. It is not definitive but right now they think it will be ok.
Some stain glass seams to survive so far according to a bishop. He says it might not fall now that the fire is decreasing. A view from drones shows that some parts of the vault are still there and so might be restored : he mentioned the 33 meters high vault from the chancel.

Padmachou, I was petrified to hear this and still am. Some things you just can't imagine to ever happen. I can so relate to your feelings and fears, and oh yes, it does hurt me too, due to my own personal connection to our Cathedral in Cologne which every Cologne born loves so much and identifies with. Yes, it's "only" a building, but we consider the Cathedral as a symbol of hope, things going well at last and a world going on. If ever something happened to it, that would be unspeakabe. So I know well about the meaning of such a church, and it makes me be with you in thoughts even more, in addition to the dismay because of Notre-Dame's historical meaning and value in many regards. A big relief is that there are thankfully - hopefully - no human victims.

Thankfully there seems to be a lot of positivity today in that this magnificent cathedral can be restored to its former glory. York Minster suffered a fire back in the 80's which destroyed the South transept roof. Luckily the fire was contained to only that part of the building when the firemen used their high pressure hoses to deliberately collapse the burning roof to the ground. It took 4 years to rebuild but they put it back to how it was (with some new additions) using traditional methods. The rose window was shattered into 40,000 seperate pieces but remained in place and they were able to save it.

I have no doubt that Notre Dame will rise again.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/y ... 18841.html

President Macron has promised that Notre Dame will be repaired within 5 years, though some experts say it could take 10 to 15 years because the entire building will need to be stabilized. 800 million Euros has already been pledged by some of France's largest corporations.

Yorkie wrote: ↑<span title="Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:29 pm">5 years ago</span> Thankfully there seems to be a lot of positivity today in that this magnificent cathedral can be restored to its former glory. York Minster suffered a fire back in the 80's which destroyed the South transept roof. Luckily the fire was contained to only that part of the building when the firemen used their high pressure hoses to deliberately collapse the burning roof to the ground. It took 4 years to rebuild but they put it back to how it was (with some new additions) using traditional methods. The rose window was shattered into 40,000 seperate pieces but remained in place and they were able to save it.

I have no doubt that Notre Dame will rise again.

No rebuilding will ever restore such a cathedral to the same way the destroyed building had been before. It then lacks the very impressive atmosphere of completely having been constructed and equipped by people long, very long ago and the connection to this far-away time that it brings. This is very special, at least for me.

Nevertheless, I consider it as completely justified, almost necessary to rebuild it and do it as true to the original as possible for the simple reasons of respect for the people of the former times as well as for those who live now, respect and acknowledgement for the importance of fostering culture for us as human beings, exactly in a world which neglects these things so often, to our clear disadvantage.

And that is why I am definitely in favour of rebuilding Notre-Dame. This planning now means something to hold on to. Actually, this coming-together from all directions in various ways at the moment touches me in a deep way. And even though it will not be the same, as much as it will be tried, there will be new sides arising which will make it unique again.

Things are actually going crazy now...

Indeed, the cathedral needs to be repaired, exactly as it used to be, as the law asks. But some of the french politics want to change the tower and make a new modern one. They also want the cathedral to be repaired in 5 years (which is convenient for the upcoming Olympic Games in Paris humhum). But it is really not safe to do it in 5 years, as the specialist really need time to value the damage and plan how to compensate it. It would really need 15 years for it to be done righteously. And they decided a military man should direct the all thing, while it should be a cathedral architecture specialist

Funny (no) : these past years, many people have raised their voices to point the fact that french governement would not give more than 40 millions euros for Notre Dame when it really needed 150 millions to be restaured. Now, everyone agrees to give it 1 billion !!! How convenient again, as is shows a nice picture of these people... Art history specialists also say that they have tried to get the laws to be more strict about how electricity should be handled and controlled in the old buildings and again they would not be listened. They say this might have prevented Notre Dame burning.

Also more than the money needed has been collected, even though the hospitals in France are dying and Macron said a few month ago "money does not come magically" , and since november people protest every saturday to tell how poor they are... It is sickening in my opinion.
I really think it is great they want to restaure Notre Dame, I wish they will do it properly. But things should not go the way they are going now, it's mad. It really looks like propaganda.

filiarheni wrote: ↑<span title="Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:13 pm">5 years ago</span> No rebuilding will ever restore such a cathedral to the same way the destroyed building had been before. It then lacks the very impressive atmosphere of completely having been constructed and equipped by people long, very long ago and the connection to this far-away time that it brings. This is very special, at least for me.

I don't think that is true - if you use the same materials with people trained in traditional techniques it is indistinguishable from the original. Honestly, when they repaired the fire at York Minster they used the exact same materials as the original builders. Yes, they had power tools and cranes but they made it the same - you honestly can't tell. And let's be honest, every cathedral has been repaired and modernised and changed over the years - even Notre Dame. The spire and much of the glass were 19th century additions.

If they do it right (and Padma's post does give cause for concern) then I honestly think it will be as good as new.

Padmachou wrote: ↑<span title="Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:30 pm">5 years ago</span> Things are actually going crazy now...

Indeed, the cathedral needs to be repaired, exactly as it used to be, as the law asks. But some of the french politics want to change the tower and make a new modern one. They also want the cathedral to be repaired in 5 years (which is convenient for the upcoming Olympic Games in Paris humhum). But it is really not safe to do it in 5 years, as the specialist really need time to value the damage and plan how to compensate it. It would really need 15 years for it to be done righteously. And they decided a military man should direct the all thing, while it should be a cathedral architecture specialist

Funny (no) : these past years, many people have raised their voices to point the fact that french governement would not give more than 40 millions euros for Notre Dame when it really needed 150 millions to be restaured. Now, everyone agrees to give it 1 billion !!! How convenient again, as is shows a nice picture of these people... Art history specialists also say that they have tried to get the laws to be more strict about how electricity should be handled and controlled in the old buildings and again they would not be listened. They say this might have prevented Notre Dame burning.

Also more than the money needed has been collected, even though the hospitals in France are dying and Macron said a few month ago "money does not come magically" , and since november people protest every saturday to tell how poor they are... It is sickening in my opinion.
I really think it is great they want to restaure Notre Dame, I wish they will do it properly. But things should not go the way they are going now, it's mad. It really looks like propaganda.

The time scale is crazy. Just doing the South Transept of York Minster took 4 years (they originally thought it would be 5) and that is a fraction of the roof that needs to be repaired at Notre Dame. And yes, it really need to be managed by experts in this field and not Government officials. Hopefully sense will prevail when things calm down and people have time to reflect and plan.

The Notre Dame in april 2018

Yorkie wrote: ↑<span title="Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:25 pm">5 years ago</span>

filiarheni wrote: ↑<span title="Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:13 pm">5 years ago</span> No rebuilding will ever restore such a cathedral to the same way the destroyed building had been before. It then lacks the very impressive atmosphere of completely having been constructed and equipped by people long, very long ago and the connection to this far-away time that it brings. This is very special, at least for me.

I don't think that is true - if you use the same materials with people trained in traditional techniques it is indistinguishable from the original. Honestly, when they repaired the fire at York Minster they used the exact same materials as the original builders. Yes, they had power tools and cranes but they made it the same - you honestly can't tell. And let's be honest, every cathedral has been repaired and modernised and changed over the years - even Notre Dame. The spire and much of the glass were 19th century additions.

If they do it right (and Padma's post does give cause for concern) then I honestly think it will be as good as new.

What I meant is the magic an original radiates. It's about the feeling, not the look. A cathedral can be rebuilt with the same material, with the traditional techniques and it can turn out like the original. But it's this: like the original. A copy will always remain a copy. It's like having a handwriting of a composer or a sculpture or a painting: It can be copied, but it lacks the fascination that the artist actually made this. A rebuilt cathedral will be unique again, but the fascinating of the original building was for instance that the former people managed to do so with the techniques and the knowledge available at that time. Last year I visited Florence, where you find Michelangelo's David twice, the original and a copy. The copy was totally uninteresting to me, while I spent infinite time with the original ... and it was not due to the fact that there were both available.

You are correct that cathedrals change in multiple ways, however, that is done carefully and step by step, not as radical as it's needed after a big fire. There is a grown connection over the centuries, it's all joined together. And each piece added for the first time is an original itself and when it gets destroyed and is copied by someone else, well, then it's a copy. It may be less important for others. But for me it does make a difference; it causes the largest part of my awe and inspiration, when I stand before a work of art. As a quotation in the below-mentioned article excellently puts it: "The walls, painting and decoration are bearers of history."

For the above-mentioned reasons I will without any doubt continue to second such rebuilding, and I'll admire those too, just in a different way.

This newspaper article as of last week expresses pretty well how I feel about it: https://translate.google.de/translate?s ... 23103.html

You know almost all old art has been reworked in one way or another. Almost any piece in any museum - Louvre, British Museum, New York Metropolitan, The Hermitage, etc. that is more than a couple centuries old has been reworked in order to preserve or restore it. I imagine the same thing is true for Notre Dame - her gargoyle, statuary, windows, etc. most have probably had restoration work done on them at some time. Ironically the current damage done to the cathedral stems from restorative efforts.