The Best Treble Choir in London

[Surpinto]

Welcome to Libera Dreams, Treble Voices. You have sure been to a lot of choral concerts! The English choral tradition is to be admired for setting such a high standard of musicianship generally; but also for its emphasis on educating young people.

Thank you for your reviews of these choirs. Some I am familiar with due to their international repute as well as abundance of recorded materials while others I have never heard of. As always, there is so much to learn.

You mentioned in a different thread that you attended the Libera concert in Brighton and have been to eight Libera concerts so far! Awesome. Would love to read how you heard about Libera and how you got interested in choral music generally. We even have a special sub-forum for such things.

[Celtic]

I had to hire a gravedigger for this topic. #spade

I was recently told that I tend to vacillate between choirs, which was a very apt description of me, as I admit that I will quickly switch allegiance based on the latest performance I have heard. Take today's performance of Haydn's Nelson Mass at St Paul's Cathedral. In December I hadn't been that impressed by their Ceremony of Carols and had even rated CVMS above them.

But today sitting a few meters away with the City of London Symphonia in touching distance. Wow, the sound was just fantastic.

The best treble choir in London? It depends...

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Screenshot_20220710-131503_Video trimmer.jpg (71.24 KiB) Viewed 3980 times

[Surpinto]

Hahaha, wonder who could have told you such a thing

I can certainly understand being under the effect of a particular most recent excellent concert. Definitely can relate to suddenly being very interested in our particular musical group to the exclusion of others for some time. Glad you enjoyed the concert at St Paul’s!

[Celtic]

Hahaha, wonder who could have told you such a thing

Probably some Canadian or Mexican.

No disrespect intended!!! But, I was thinking about this after the posts about German/Bavarian/Austrian choirs... and the above, I would say, is an equivalent statement...

I mean, woe betide you call Bavarians German... or vice versa, and definitely don't call either Austrian!!!

I can certainly understand being under the effect of a particular most recent excellent concert. Definitely can relate to suddenly being very interested in our particular musical group to the exclusion of others for some time. Glad you enjoyed the concert at St Paul’s!

It was wonderful, and even more so for being free! Saw them escaping through their secret door after the service.

I wonder whether I give the wrong impression sometimes of how good or bad choirs are. St Paul's in December were great, just not as great as I expected and were blown out of the water by Westminster Abbey. But today they were absolutely where you would expect them to be I terms of quality and delivery.

Swings and roundabouts...

[filiarheni]

I was recently told that I tend to vacillate between choirs, which was a very apt description of me, as I admit that I will quickly switch allegiance based on the latest performance I have heard. [...]

The best treble choir in London? It depends...

I can certainly understand being under the effect of a particular most recent excellent concert. Definitely can relate to suddenly being very interested in our particular musical group to the exclusion of others for some time.

I need more than one performance to label a choir with the word "best". Interest and enthusiasm, yes. Eager to explore them further, of course. But speaking of best so early? No. As every choir also depends on its condition (form?) the day of the concert. So when I know that the choir is good, but I'm not 100 % convinced in one particular concert, then they don't lose my good opinion about them.

I understand what you experience, Celtic, but in my case this rather feels like the choir I currently favour to listen to, while I don't necessarily consider this choir the best of all. For some choirs I have a long-lasting love, which I do not expect to change.

[Celtic]

So, despite my advent choral gluttony, the "Story of Christmas Appeal" is a Christmas charity event in London that has passed me by. (likely due to the fact that it is well beyond both my financial and social class - never owned a bow tie!)

Thankfully, for us plebeians, they have posted the last three year's on YT.

St Paul's Cathedral Choir in 2022 and 2020

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In 2021 they had the rarely seen Choir of HM Chapel Royal, Hampton Court Palace!

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Enjoy!

[Surpinto]

So, despite my advent choral gluttony, the "Story of Christmas Appeal" is a Christmas charity event in London that has passed me by. (likely due to the fact that it is well beyond both my financial and social class - never owned a bow tie!)

Thankfully, for us plebeians, they have posted the last three year's on YT.

St Paul's Cathedral Choir in 2022 and 2020

► Show Spoiler

► Show Spoiler

In 2021 they had the rarely seen Choir of HM Chapel Royal, Hampton Court Palace!

► Show Spoiler

Enjoy!

Cool!

I think it's time for a break.

Is it still? You seem to be back in full swing.

[Celtic]

I think it's time for a break.

Is it still? You seem to be back in full swing.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted anything, I just didn't want to disappear without any notice. I have just been struggling hugely with bouts of severe depression, particularly in the run up to Xmas, but had a surprisingly not-awful last week including managing a 5km run yesterday for the first time since October... I'll be around until I'm not.

So, despite my advent choral gluttony, the "Story of Christmas Appeal" is a Christmas charity event in London that has passed me by. (likely due to the fact that it is well beyond both my financial and social class - never owned a bow tie!)

Thankfully, for us plebeians, they have posted the last three year's on YT.

St Paul's Cathedral Choir in 2022 and 2020

► Show Spoiler

► Show Spoiler

In 2021 they had the rarely seen Choir of HM Chapel Royal, Hampton Court Palace!

► Show Spoiler

Enjoy!

Cool!

I was quite pleased to find the St Paul's ones. (notice William the YCOTY finalist is in the 2020 one) Post-pandemic they have gone back to not posting any choir clips online! After the glut of videos over the pandemic period, it was such a shame to see them return completely to in-person services only.

The Hampton Court choir is also one rarely seen, they unexpectedly sang a service with Christ Church Cathedral Oxford last year which Christ Church streamed. Other than that the only clips I have of them are ones where Lucy Worsley decided that what a TV program about the history of choral music needs is for the presenter to talk over the singing... and not to play the whole song.

[Surpinto]

I think it's time for a break.

Is it still? You seem to be back in full swing.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted anything, I just didn't want to disappear without any notice. I have just been struggling hugely with bouts of severe depression, particularly in the run up to Xmas, but had a surprisingly not-awful last week including managing a 5km run yesterday for the first time since October... I'll be around until I'm not.

I hope you didn't take my lighthearted jibe at your now defunct signature line as anything but that. I was happy to see you back and posting here again and wanted to remark on it. Appreciate you letting us know; and it goes without saying that you should take all the time you need. Your choir obligations here are secondary to your health and well-being so please do take care.

I was quite pleased to find the St Paul's ones. (notice William the YCOTY finalist is in the 2020 one) Post-pandemic they have gone back to not posting any choir clips online! After the glut of videos over the pandemic period, it was such a shame to see them return completely to in-person services only.

The Hampton Court choir is also one rarely seen, they unexpectedly sang a service with Christ Church Cathedral Oxford last year which Christ Church streamed. Other than that the only clips I have of them are ones where Lucy Worsley decided that what a TV program about the history of choral music needs is for the presenter to talk over the singing... and not to play the whole song.

Seems they want to lure congregants back to the pews. Understandable of course, but woefully misguided given how people are in 2023 in terms of both religious observance and the digital nature of modern life.

There are other choirs who have embraced the online aspect of things and are growing. Saint Thomas Church 5th Avenue in New York gets 1-1.5k views per Sunday service and several hundred for evensong. While the Sunday services can be fairly full (though not back to pre-pandemic levels from what I've seen), their evensongs are usually quite empty, maybe just a a dozen people on weekdays, or a few dozen on Sunday unless it's some kind of special service. So the vast majority of evensong attendees are virtual rather than in-person. The Sunday morning service attendance is hardly so lopsided towards the online folks, but they definitely outnumber the in-person crowd.

Saint Thomas Church reported that more and more of their donations are coming from out side of New York and around the world due to their livestreams, so much so that they directly address the online congregation during the official greeting as well as communion.

For a religious organization to disregard the potential reach of their music ministry and to cling covetously to it for the benefit of a small few in today's hi-tech world seems strange and foolish to me. King's College never resumed their audio webcasts after COVID lockdowns ended either. I just don't get it.

[Celtic]

Seems they want to lure congregants back to the pews. Understandable of course, but woefully misguided given how people are in 2023 in terms of both religious observance and the digital nature of modern life.

There are other choirs who have embraced the online aspect of things and are growing. Saint Thomas Church 5th Avenue in New York gets 1-1.5k views per Sunday service and several hundred for evensong. While the Sunday services can be fairly full (though not back to pre-pandemic levels from what I've seen), their evensongs are usually quite empty, maybe just a a dozen people on weekdays, or a few dozen on Sunday unless it's some kind of special service. So the vast majority of evensong attendees are virtual rather than in-person. The Sunday morning service attendance is hardly so lopsided towards the online folks, but they definitely outnumber the in-person crowd.

Saint Thomas Church reported that more and more of their donations are coming from out side of New York and around the world due to their livestreams, so much so that they directly address the online congregation during the official greeting as well as communion.

For a religious organization to disregard the potential reach of their music ministry and to cling covetously to it for the benefit of a small few in today's hi-tech world seems strange and foolish to me. King's College never resumed their audio webcasts after COVID lockdowns ended either. I just don't get it.

It does seem a bit blinkered to me, to ignore the online aspect. If Saint Thomas can get 1.5k views I'm sure the Wabbey or the Spathedral (no? ) could get quite a decent view count.

Canterbury Cathedral, which does stream it's services regularly gets 2-4k views and I've regularly enjoyed watching them. Their Christmas Carol Services both have 40K+ views. Although, I feel they should add the option to donate through YT or ko-fi or something to make it easy for people who want to, to donate small amounts.

I'd watch St Paul's if they had a streamed choral service again. I'm lucky enough to live on the same tube line as St Paul's, but it is still a 50+ minute journey door-to-door with the cost of a return ticket to Central London.

[Surpinto]

It does seem a bit blinkered to me, to ignore the online aspect. If Saint Thomas can get 1.5k views I'm sure the Wabbey or the Spathedral (no? ) could get quite a decent view count.

Spathedral!!!

Canterbury Cathedral, which does stream it's services regularly gets 2-4k views and I've regularly enjoyed watching them. Their Christmas Carol Services both have 40K+ views. Although, I feel they should add the option to donate through YT or ko-fi or something to make it easy for people who want to, to donate small amounts.

The biggest problem I've seen with those churches who continue to stream are video quality issues. Enormous cathedrals like Canterbury have been forced to mount their cameras in high up awkward locations, and so you often get many distant and out of focus shots. Many also skimped on getting the super high end camera equipment that such distant and elevated positioning would require from a technical point of view, nor did they ensure adequate lighting. Canterbury has actually done a decent job with their livestreams from what I've seen, while New College had some major videography and lightening problems as I recall. Understandable that much of these measures were put into place hastily during lockdown, but hopefully over time a serious holistic approach can be taken.

Saint Thomas has done the best job of it from what I've see: good camera work/lighting and they're even including text overlays onto the videos in an unobtrusive way to solicit donations.

[Celtic]

The biggest problem I've seen with those churches who continue to stream are video quality issues. Enormous cathedrals like Canterbury have been forced to mount their cameras in high up awkward locations, and so you often get many distant and out of focus shots. Many also skimped on getting the super high end camera equipment that such distant and elevated positioning would require from a technical point of view, nor did they ensure adequate lighting. Canterbury has actually done a decent job with their livestreams from what I've seen, while New College had some major videography and lightening problems as I recall. Understandable that much of these measures were put into place hastily during lockdown, but hopefully over time a serious holistic approach can be taken.

Saint Thomas has done the best job of it from what I've see: good camera work/lighting and they're even including text overlays onto the videos in an unobtrusive way to solicit donations.

yes, I agree Saint Thomas do a great job of their streamed services.

Lighting and camera positioning are always going to be a problem in cathedrals and churches, they are not designed with filming in mind! New College and Magdalen continue to stream some of their services, but both are so dark and grainy you may as well be watching a live stream of the Black Hole of Calcutta.

Frustratingly Westminster Abbey still has the video equipment in place, because they use it to display a live feed of the quire on flat screens for people in the transepts. While not amazing, both the Wabbey and Spathedral were decent enough quality for enjoying an evensong.

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Wabbey.jpg (477.64 KiB) Viewed 3619 times

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Spathedral.jpg (383.82 KiB) Viewed 3619 times

York Minster appears to have gone backwards a little bit on their stream quality and to the use of those distant high up cameras you mentioned, although it isn't too bad. Note Sam Brophy in the 2020 stream.

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York2020.jpg (369.96 KiB) Viewed 3619 times

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York2021.jpg (333.64 KiB) Viewed 3619 times

[Surpinto]

Thanks for demonstrating the point! As I said, it 's either that they don't want to invest in the serious videography required due to the expense, or they aren't media/PR savvy enough to realize the full benefits.